Every week, culture critics Diep Tran and Jose Solís bring a POC perspective to the performing arts with their Token Theatre Friends podcast and video series. The show can be found on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher, and YouTube. You can listen to episodes from the previous version of the podcast here but to get new episodes, you will need to resubscribe to our new podcast feed (look for the all-red logo).
This week, the Friends weren’t able to record an intro together. But their guest is pretty epic. They welcomed Tony-winning actor/writer John Leguizamo, who is now adding director to his resume. He’s starring in and directing a new film, Critical Thinking, where he plays a chess teacher who helps inspires a group of low-income Black and Latinx high-schoolers to national chess championship victory. Leguizamo drops by to talk about the film, Latin History for Morons (currently on Netflix), and his ongoing work to advance Latinx representation in film and theater.
Here are links to the things discussed in this episode.
- Critical Thinking
- Latin History for Morons
- Leguizamo recommends that you all read: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann
- That NPR interview where Leguizamo talked about being heckled by racist audience members
The episode transcript is below.
Diep:
Hi, this is Diep Tran, one of your token theater friends. You’re probably wondering where Jose Solís, my co-host, is this week. Last week was a really overwhelming week, so we don’t really have the mental and emotional space to record an intro this week. So we just have an interview with the legendary John Leguizamo coming up for you.
But I wanted to give you all a little update on like what’s going on with me. So I was recently on the phone with a professor in London. I was interviewing him for a story I’m working on about zombies and pandemics—very light subjects—and he told me that I sounded really upbeat for someone who had lost her job because of COVID and is now freelancing full time, and I wanted to tell you all the answer I told him, which is, what this moment has really taught me is how to live in the moment and to feel okay with uncertainty, and how to be truly grateful for the little things. And right now, I’m not making as much money right now as I was when I was working a full time job, but at the same time, I’ve been learning to be grateful for the fact that I’m healthy and my family is healthy, and that I can take a nap in the middle of the day, when I’m feeling overwhelmed by everything. And I can choose what to focus my time and my energy on. And right now what I’ve been choosing to focus on and what’s been really nourishing me is how I can be of service to people. That’s how I decide what I’m going to write about on Token Theater Friends.com, and that’s why I just, I decided to, you know, be a poll worker for the election and to go out and protest and amplify the messages that protesters are sending. I’ve also signed up to do some writing and editing for this nonprofit that’s focused on educating the Vietnamese-American community like my own community and to work on something that my own mother can read.
And the reason I’m telling you all about all of this is not to make you feel bad for if you feel like you’re not doing enough. It’s just to show you like how right now you may feel like you’re powerless, you may feel like everything is hopeless, and how important it is to surround yourself with people who can pull you out of that. I had, I had my first big meeting with everyone at the nonprofit that I’m volunteering with, and everyone is just so hopeful and, and driven and really passionate about the cause. And the great thing, especially if you’ve ever worked in backstage at a theater or on an art project with other people, is how their energy helps feed your energy and it’s the same energy I felt when I had more time to go out and do more protesting.It’s the energy of people who are not willing to give up and who are willing to keep fighting into the end and who still have hope, and by them having hope it helps, you know, it helps keep the flame inside of you alive. If you’re feeling down, and if you’re able, I really hope you’ll take the time to get involved in like any of these efforts to help the November 3 election or any you know, socio-political social justice issue that you’re passionate with, and just be around people, even if it’s remotely, be around people who can help buoy your spirits and to and who can help you feel gratitude. Not just for your own life but feel gratitude for the fact that there are still wonderful people out there who are trying and If we can just keep on trying, then maybe things will get better.
So yes, please consume art, read Token Theatre Friends, read books, read things that inspire you watch things that inspire you, and also find some people that will inspire you and that will keep your spirits up. If this moment has taught us anything, it’s it’s the fact that we need each other in order to make a better world. And so I hope that right now, you’re not isolating yourself, and you’re being and you’re willing to be open about where you need help and use your energy in a productive way that will help other people and that will also help yourself. And so that is my soapbox for this episode.
And now we’ll go to the interview that Jose and I did for this week. We interviewed actor, writer, comedian John Leguizamo, who has a new film coming out, called Critical Thinking, where he’s directing and also starring in alongside Rachel Bay Jones, who you may remember from Dear Evan Hanson on Broadway. I’ll just read a summary of what the movie is about. It’s based on a true story from 1998. Five Latinx and Black teenagers from the toughest, underserved ghetto in Miami fight their way into the national Chess Championship under the guidance of their unconventional but inspirational teacher.
John Leguizamo plays that teacher and he was kind enough to hop on a call and talk to us about what it is to build legacy and what it is to be patient and to teach people even if we don’t always agree with them. Oh, and at a certain point you cannot see it on this podcast, but I hold up the book and I think John is very proud of me in that moment. That book is called 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann, which John also talked about in his one man Broadway play Latin History for Morons which you can also watch on Netflix. So watch Latin History for Morons, watch Critical Thinking, and listen to this interview with the legendary John Leguizamo.
Jose:
Hello!
John Leguizamo
Hello.
Diep:
Hello!
Jose:
Hi, John.
John Leguizamo
How you doing?
Jose:
¿Cómo estás? Bienvenido.
John Leguizamo
Gracias, un placer. ¿Cómo es todo?
Jose:
I’m doing great. See, I even wore my Moulin Rouge shirt for you.
John Leguizamo
Oh nice, nice. We can barely see it, but yeah.
Jose:
So welcome. I am so excited that you are joining us. I was like, chill, and I saw you and I’m like, starstruck. And I’m like, oh, like, Oh my god, I have loved your work. You know, I grew up in Honduras. And I’ve loved your work since I was a little kid.
John Leguizamo
Aw thank you, my brother, thank you.
Jose:
Yeah. And when I was watching Critical Thinking, congratulations, by the way.
John Leguizamo
Thank you.
Jose:
I couldn’t help but think that you’re like, you know, the direct heir to you know, Edward [James Olmos], and this is your Stand and Deliver, right? So..
John Leguizamo
My stand up, deliver kick ass, kick it to the field post, you know, the goalposts. Yeah yeah, definitely definitely. I love that movie. That movie was so inspirational to me. And we need so many more of these type of movies of Latin leaders who who have been pioneering and nourishing our youth. You know, through the 500 years that we’ve been in this country.
Diep:
What was part of your decision to direct it?
John Leguizamo
Well, they asked me, you know, the producers Carla Berkowitz and Scott Rosenfeld, and I was like, “You know what? I think I can do that. I think I can bring something”, you don’t want to jump in a movie just to, you know, to for vanity sake, you want to you want to feel like I can bring something else I can add to this. And I really felt like, you know, I was a ghetto ned growing up a ghetto nerd, and I knew, I knew how these kids felt, you know, trapped between, you know, two places, you know, trapped between doing, you know, near dwell stuff and, and football and you just don’t, sometimes you just not a football player. You’re a book reader, you know, you’re a book nerd.
Jose:
So your chess was books and literature then?
John Leguizamo
Yeah, my, my chessboard was always plays, books, poems, you know, movies, you know, the the field that I’m in.
Diep:
Speaking of books, I’ve been reading this.
John Leguizamo
Woo!
Diep:
It’s a lot. It’s a lot. I’m still—
John Leguizamo
But it’s so good. Come on.
Diep:
I know. It’s so dense though.
John Leguizamo
It is mad dense, but he writes so well. I mean, he really does. I mean, he makes it poetry, he makes it accessible because it’s because Hey, yo, we were great empires. It can’t if it wasn’t dance, it wouldn’t be worth it. I mean, we were the one of the greatest civilizations on Earth, the Incas, the Mayans, the Aztecs, Comanche and Apache in the southwest. These were vital, important civilizations equal to or bigger than most of the European and Asian empires. I mean, the Inca were three times bigger than the Ming Dynasty, bigger than Czarist Russia, bigger than the Ottoman Empire. I mean, what more can I say?
Diep:
Yeah, I remember in grade school, we did like a whole course where we had to pick different Mesoamerican tribes to do reports on and I picked the Incas, and and it was really funny because we did all this history and then and then we skip straight to and then the Spanish came, we’re not going to talk about that. We’re not gonna talk about how they killed all these people. They just came and then that’s what happened. And now we’re gonna start—
John Leguizamo
But it’s more than the genocide, man. I mean, the genocide of course is horrific, but that this is the first time in the history of mankind, where a people’s culture, religion, and language was completely destroyed. For all these groups of people, Mayans, Incas and Aztecs, I mean, some vestiges of language, Nahuatl and Mayan languages in some Quetua survived, but you know, not not not the way they should not with the, with these great empires. So you know, you have to cut and then you have to so you have to fast forward 500 years and go where are Latin people now. I mean, that’s what we came from. That is still part of our legacy, you know, that destruction of who we were, and it’s called psychosocial erasure. You know, and it continues here in American, you know, we’re the largest ethnic group in America. 20%, almost 20% of population, including all my undocumented immigrant brothers and sisters, and yet less than 3% of faces on in movies, behind the camera, I mean, less than 1% of the stories and all the streamers in Hollywood. I mean, the least represented in children’s picture books, with 30% of the public school students in the host nation and and we don’t see ourselves represented in picture books. How does a kid you know, see himself how does he build his self esteem when he never sees himself in a comic book or picture book or a movie or, you know, just anywhere I mean, it’s it’s it’s impossible
Jose:
Or even when they’re told that they’re not gonna learn Spanish cuz if they get bullied if they you know, speak Spanish in school or they bring food that’s not like some boring peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
John Leguizamo
Right right. Those little Yeah, well we don’t do Goya anymore so Goya is big done, so drop the Goya.
Diep:
What’s your alternative to Goya? What’s a good alternative?
John Leguizamo
You go to your, you go to your store and you get, for Sazón, you get garlic powder, onion powder, coriander powder, cumin, black pepper, salt, and achiote and you got sazón without nitrates or monosodium glutamate?
Jose:
I love it.
John Leguizamo
So F U, Goya. You ain’t for us, we ain’t for you.
Jose:
So, recently you’ve been playing, you know, literal teachers but I wonder, you know, what’s like the the greatest thing or the thing that you most appreciate that art and the art that you love has taught you.
John Leguizamo
You mean in terms of being a teacher or I’m not sure
Jose:
You know in your life, even if your play teachers, like you know, your projects are like fantastic, you know, like you’re not supposed to be taking notes, either Latin history or Critical Thinking.
John Leguizamo
Well, Latin History took me to another place. I mean, I was so happy that my audiences went with me there. Letting me you know, instruct and educate. And I was and the more I held on to those reins, the more they appreciated so that was that was a really beautiful sort of soul exchange in the theater. And and you know, I have embraced that you know that there’s so much incredible information out there, especially in this digital age that I can now bring to books, bring to picture books for children, bring to plays, bring to movies. I just have to, you know, figure out a way around the gatekeepers, because they’re the ones denying me and anybody who looks like me access. You know, that’s that’s the problem right there because wherever we have metrics, we Latin people win. Like, Spotify, J Balvin is the number one star in the world, Colombian rapper. My Dominican sister, Cardi B, number one in billboard. Maluma, Colombian, brother number, you know up to the top 10. Camila Cabello, Pitbull, Bad Buddy. You name them and they’re up there and in baseball we went because you got stats and in politics AOC, Cindy Polo, Debbie Mucarsell-Powell, Xavier Bursera, Veronica Escobar, Joaquin Castro, the Castro’s. Wherever because you can count those votes but when it’s gatekeepers, we gotta rely on of gatekeepers opinion or taste, they don’t they don’t see us they don’t know us they don’t care about us. We don’t win.
Diep:
And do you think that’s part of the reason because you know, growing up, like I knew you as Tybalt the prince of cats and in Moulin Rouge and I feel like as your career progress, you went back to doing you know more original work on stage as well as you know, now you’re directing and so is this your way of like gaining back control of production and getting back in power.
John Leguizamo
Absolutely, absolutely, Because you know, it was disappointing run in Hollywood. You know, you do movies like like if I if I was a white actor, and did Carlito’s Way, boom I’d be like, you know, Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt you know you do a movie that’s a hit like that, Empire, you know or something where I’m the lead and it’s a hit, you you know, your opportunities quadruple. But when you’re Latin it just like you, it’s like you didn’t even do it. You know, so I was like, let me go back to what feeds me. Let me go back to my community. Let me go to where there are no gatekeepers: Broadway, theatre, Off-Broadway, where there are no gatekeepers, all you got to do is have a tight script, raise the money and boom rent out that that barn, you know, and that that’s how Lin Manuel did Hamilton. I mean, he would have pitched that to a studio, to network, to a streamer, they would have been like “excuse me, Burr was not Black and a Puerto Rican Hamilton? That’s outrageous. And they didn’t speak in hip-hop back in those days.” You know, it would have never got done but because he’s in the theater, boom. You know?
Jose:
The work that you that you get from your young ensemble is really, really wonderful. Because, you know, it seems like everyone’s so comfortable.
John Leguizamo
So talented. Thank you.
Jose:
How did you achieve that? Because like, I never felt comfortable in school.
John Leguizamo
Well, you know, it was hard to get these kids because there was so much Latin and Black talent out there. Hundreds. And they’re all incredible so I was like, how am I going to solve this? I gotta I gotta make a choice. So what I did was I picked guys who looked like their characters, or their personality was the character already. Because, you know, I’m directing and I’m in it. You know, I needed a shorthand, I didn’t have the time for long process of development. And then we didn’t, you know, did like a chess bootcamp. I said, you know, you’re going to be my movie, you got to give me a week before, which is unheard of in independent films. This was a 20 day shoot, too, which is brutal. And so I asked them, give me a week, 12 hours a day we’re going to rehearse after shooting too this is going to be exhausting, but you’re gonna be so proud of your work at the end. And they they came, the kids delivered man and I got the real guys who were, who were the real stars champions, they came and consulted and showed us how to play the moves. You know, whatever was bumping a tripping or not right or, or a little fudge, they made us correct it. It was great.
Jose:
I created and I’m currently running a training lab for critics of color and every time that I have to, like, you know, teach them I feel like why do I have to teach them? And I wonder if you have any words to be like relax me or any insight that you that you have now as a real life educator?
John Leguizamo
Well, you know, I think it’s you’ve got to make it fun and you got to let them teach themselves in some ways. You know, I think that that was the beauty of what I talked to Mario Martinez, the real teacher that I was playing, is like, how did you get that info into them? How did you How did you because they had the talent and the passion, it was just getting the book knowledge in them. And obviously he supplied all the books and and walked them through the right passages but it was that magnetic board they would go over the moves over and then have them try to replicate it or break through the break the code on it. And that’s how they self taught themselves.
Diep:
How would you rate yourself as a player now?
John Leguizamo
You know, I’m a little better. Not as good as I thought I would be but I am I am winning a little bit more. I beat my son, like once or twice and he used to always beat me. Mostly children, I beat. I haven’t played adults yet.
Diep:
Go against the college kids one day.
John Leguizamo
Working towards it. I got first go through high school though.
Jose:
It’s also so exciting because right now, I mean, Latin History is on Netflix and Critical Thinking is gonna be on VOD and what does that mean like to have, you know, to give people access to your work. Which, you know, like, what are you doing on Broadway in New York? And usually an independent movie starts like super small and then if they can, like Oscar buzz or whatever, they keep growing but now like, everyone can see it.
John Leguizamo
Yeah. Which is great. You know, I mean, obviously I was robbed of my victory at South by Southwest Film Festival, and, and theater release, you know, because of COVID. But I think the upside is, everybody can see it now on Apple TV, Amazon, VUDU, iTunes, and since there there, we’re all sequestered at home. You know, we got to look at something and then why not look at Critical Thinking? I think it’s a really inspiring movie. True story. Shows you how many gifted, genius street intellectuals are in our neighborhoods, and Latin communities and Black communities that are just you know, squandered, you know, like, wasted dreams and, and, and it doesn’t need to be that way. You know, we really we really need to do something to to make that change.
Jose:
I love how you balance both, you know, like darkness and joy, because like the movie has some very violent moments that honestly made me think of growing up in Honduras. But then, like, you balance that with such warmth and happiness and why is it important as an artist to also show the joy of our people.
John Leguizamo
Because, you know, otherwise it’s ghetto porn when it’s all that melodrama and and just, you know soul-less violence. Because there’s a lot of joy our communities because that’s, that’s the only thing we can afford is joy. You know, it’s tax free. You know, and, and, and that’s and you when you go to a Latin community, you know, they’re celebratin’ they’re having block parties, Park parties, music’s bumping, everybody’s laughing and sharing food and dancing you you’ve never seen joy like that in any community, man. It’s the most beautiful heartwarming thing you’ve ever seen. And inclusive everybody’s welcome, everybody.
Diep:
Speaking of you as an educator, I feel like because I was listening to your NPR interview about like when you got heckled while doing Latin History by like some racist white people. And like last year, you know, you’re touring around the country doing this play and and you’ve met all kinds of people who may not share your views. And so what have you learned about like trying to talk to racist white people?
John Leguizamo
Uh, it’s tricky, because when they yell stuff out, in appropriately, I mean, who goes to a republican play? If you’re there, there’s such a thing and starts yelling crazy shit at them. I mean, who does that it’s so weird that these older white couples feel like it’s okay to yell. Like, “we hate you. Go back to Mexico”, and I’m not even Mexican. You know? It’s like yelling really horrible stuff. What I mean, I don’t understand how you think that that’s civilized. Do you know, I mean? And so I don’t really know how to respond to them. I just try to keep the crowds from attacking them. That’s what I just try to do you know. And if they had an opinion to share or something but it just taunts you know, it’s just vilifying and it’s not really sharing anything intellectual it’s just being mean and I don’t know I try to ignore them because I don’t want to get into a battle with them because they’re not really there to to exchange anything they just there to be mean.
Diep:
Right But how have you learned something about like how to have like meaningful exchanges?
John Leguizamo
That yeah, that I have. I mean, you you got to really go into it open minded you can’t go there wanting to proselytize and convert. You got to really go there. And go, you know, I I can learn I might learn something. That’s the way you go to otherwise you’re not gonna you’re not gonna what how you gonna penetrate anybody make them change their opinion? They’re not gonna do that to you. So yeah, really come in there as open as you can. I mean, it was just difficult, not easy.
Jose:
We got the warning for one more question. So I you know, I grew up and you were my my Luigi when I was little, and I couldn’t have been thinking right now, epecially after you know Chadwick Boseman passed that in many ways, you know, real life heroes are people like, like you and him who are rescuing our heritage and rescuing, creating characters that will live on forever. And although you know, I want you to live forever and ever and ever. Please talk a little bit about this let’s say like a conscious like heritage that you’re building because I’m seeing like a bookcase behind you and I’m imagining that you’re leaving behind something not only for your kids, but but for us and for our kids and for
John Leguizamo
Definitely, definitely tryna leave a legacy. Definitely trying to get all the information I’ve learned in the last 15 years in terms of my, my research, I’m definitely trying to get it in as many books as many formats as possible. So yeah, you’re gonna see a lot. I’m gonna try to leave the world the world a more brown planet than then I came into it.
Jose:
Already on it. So do you want to invite our listeners and our viewers to find Critical Thinking and to also watch all your shows that are available.
John Leguizamo
Yes, please everybody watch Critical Thinking on on demand, on Apple TV, iTunes, Amazon and Vudu, and all the other platforms except Netflix. And you can see Latin History for Morons only on Netflix.
Jose:
Muchas gracias, John.
John Leguizamo
Gracias a ti.
Jose:
Ha sido un sueño. Break a leg. Bye bye.
Diep:
I hope you all enjoy the interview and that you also do some critical thinking of your own. This is usually the part of the show where Jose talks about why you should be a Patreon. Jose doesn’t Jose can’t do that today. So I’m doing it. If you love this podcast and if you love the writing that Jose and I are doing on TokenTheatreFriends.com then please please, please support us on Patreon if you can. Token Theater Friends is 100% reader supported and we have no angel investors and, you know large donations. We’re running this out of love and also out of a need to, like I said at the top of the show, to feel useful during this time. And for as little as $1 a month you can help support mine and Jose’s work and and we’re also trying to build a community of patrons if you become a patron you’ll be able to take part in programming polls that we put out. Wow, say that three times fast.
And, and we’re also doing like weekly discussions about topics that come up. Our Patreon base so far are very opinionated and so smart. And so if you are also an opinionated lover of theater and the arts and you want to get into discussions about about it in a platform that’s not in a platform that’s not incredibly public and problematic, like Facebook or Twitter, then I encourage you to be a patron of Token Theatre Friends. I thank you for listening and I hope you all have a great week and we’ll talk to you again next week. Bye.