Every week, culture critics Diep Tran and Jose Solís bring a POC perspective to the performing arts with their Token Theatre Friends podcast. The show can be found on Spotify, iTunes and Stitcher. You can listen to episodes from the previous version of the podcast here but to get new episodes, you will need to resubscribe to our new podcast feed (look for the all-red logo).
This week, the Friends open the show by talking about Black is King, Beyoncé’s new visual album, and folklore, the new album by Taylor Swift that was written and released during quarantine. They talk about how these albums use storytelling as their primary driver, and what other artists can learn about producing during quarantine. And why are the Friends talking about music?
That’s because their guest this week is Tony winner BD Wong, who is releasing a visual album of his own (his “gay Lemonade” if you will). Wong and his husband videographer Richert Schnorr have created 18 music videos, set to the theatrical song cycle Songs from an Unmade Bed. It is about the inner musings and romantic life of a gay man living in New York City. The videos will stream at 8 pm EST on Monday, August 10, as a benefit for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS.
Songs From an Unmade Bed first premiered in 2005 and was created by Pulitzer Prize and Grammy Award-winning lyricist and librettist Mark Campbell with 18 composers: Debra Barsha, Mark Bennett, Peter Foley, Jenny Giering, Peter Golub, Jake Heggie, Stephen Hoffman, Lance Horne, Gihieh Lee, Steven Lutvak, Steve Marzullo, Brendan Milburn, Chris Miller, Greg Pliska, Duncan Sheik, Kim D. Sherman, Jeffrey Stock and Joseph Thalken.
Below is the episode transcript.
Diep:
Hi, this is Diep Tran.
Jose:
I’m Jose Solis.
Diep:
And we’re your Token Theatre Friends. People who love theater so much that you know sometimes you just need a little break from theater. And, and this past week, we took a little bit of a breather. There’s not a lot of like theater theater that we saw together. So we’re just going to do like a potpourri, a variety pack episode of things, culture that we’ve consumed in the past week and you know, talk to each other about them, tell you about them and maybe you’ll want to consume them as well. And then who’s our guest for this week Jose?
Jose:
Today we’re going to be talking to Tony winner BD Wong who in quarantine did his own Beyonce and recorded a song cycle of music videos. It’s true though! Called “Songs From an Unmade Bed.” It’s a collection of music videos, and it’s set to benefit Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS, so we’re going to be doing that. I’m so excited to talk to him, because it has been a cruel summer indeed.
Diep:
Oh my god, I love that. You said he did a Beyonce by releasing a visual album.
Jose:
Isn’t it? Did she, like, invent that, basically.
Diep:
Yeah, yeah, she did. And what I really love is like, you and I were both talking—we’realso both listening to Taylor Swift’s new album “folklore” last week. Where she also just dropped it, announced like 12 hours beforehand that this is going to happen, there’s going to be a new album coming out tonight and we’re just like, Whoa, no one needs publicists anymore. They can just go out into their social media spaces. And and just say, Hey, I’m doing a thing.
Jose:
But that’s not a visual album, which is very disappointing. I mean, she had time I guess. I mean, not that I want to ask Taylor to do even more because you know like I am wearing my Stella McCartney Taylor Swift shirt, cruel summer, for the first time and I was like, how can you be releasing a new album and new merch when I haven’t even worn the merch that I bought for “Lover” last summer? Like how but I mean, I guess also that Taylor, we have no money like stop putting out new stuff. When there’s so many people who aren’t employed, that’s not very thoughtful.
Diep:
Well, good thing it’s available on Spotify, if you want to listen to it, kind of like how Beyonce’s “Black is King” was released also in July and “Hamilton” was released at the beginning of July. And so if you got Disney+ for one for at least one month, you could have seen both you know, like we love a thrifty queen.
Jose:
I don’t think anyone has referred to Beyonce as a thrifty Queen in her life.
Diep:
Beyonce plans everything and so I don’t doubt that she, the releases coincided so nicely.
Jose:
Yeah, that’s a really good point. So what have you been watching?
Diep:
Well speaking of I mean, I was actually watching “Black is King,” like over the weekend. And what was really interesting to me about it, like in comparison to, you know, the other Beyonce visual albums because if you’re not a Beyonce fan, I am sorry for the next 15 minutes. What’s really fascinating about watching it and the thing is, I am not qualified to talk about any of the iconography in it, but it’s so interesting to see the the evolution of Beyonce’s visual aesthetic from Beyonce, the self-titled album, which is very much like, it was a collection of vignettes basically around a theme of her as a woman, her as a mother, you know, Beyonce the self. And then in “Lemonade,” it became Beyonce, the spurned woman, yes, but also like Beyonce, the daughter, like where Beyonce came from, which is New Orleans. And then for “Black is King,” what is Beyonce’s lineage, like looking back to where, you know, her ancestry and touching back on, you know, the legacies of kings and queens of Africa and how her, you know, present royal iconography that she’s been using quite a bit, actually, with Jay Z, how that’s tied into the ancient iconography of, you know, ancient Egypt and, all of those things. So it’s been interesting to see, to see her discover herself as a queen.
Jose:
I mean, that’s what people have been calling her for like over a decade now. So she might as well claim the throne. But you’re right about that. One of the reasons why I haven’t watched “Black is King” is because I was, as you know, slightly under the weather with my COVID scare last week, and I know by now that every time that Beyonce drops something, it’s something that I want to, like pay full attention to. And I didn’t want to have like “Black is King” playing in the background and miss out everything. So I’d be like typing right or like being on my phone or stuff, like I need to find the place to sit. It’s almost like sacred time. I think when an artist of that caliber put something that’s so thoughtful and so detailed out because I’ve been watching the photos and screencaps and stuff. And just like, I’m like, Holy fuck, there’s like so many different things going on just in one frame that I can, you know, my body because of the heat and being sick, was not ready for this jelly to say. But I’ll get to it very very very very soon. Meanwhile, poor Taylor, you know, like I laughed so hard because someone said that “folklore” was finally Taylor releasing her Starbucks album. Which accurate but you know it’s very soothing right? I mean, I needed to be like calm, I needed to not you know deal with anything too like big while I was trying to get over my weird allergy not COVID thing that I went through.
Diep:
Yeah. Jose’s COVID negative so yes. But talk about things I could play in the background. I feel like it’s so sad it really is. I don’t hate it. Taylor Swift released like a 16 track album that she created during quarantine and Beyonce’s “Black is King,” the soundtrack was released last year but I feel like with this, with “Black is King” in particular, the visuals enhance the music even more, and I feel, kind of like “Lemonade,” those two things are so interlinked. I feel like “Black is King” is like the completion of this African song cycle that she’s been exploring. And so I feel like right now, it’s, for me like being able to really sit with it for a long period of time in a way I haven’t been able to sit with art before, this has been a really rewarding time for me.
Jose:
One of the things that I really love about “Lemonade,” because in lieu of watching “Black is King,” I listened to “Lemonade” a lot over the weekend. And “Lemonade” is one of those albums that I cannot just like, listen to a song, like I have to listen to the entire album. So like, I love that Beyonce has rescued that idea of like, an album album, you know, like you start at the very beginning and you need to go the whole way through. And I can feel that for “folklore” that in a way you can’t just pick a song and like go there but I have to listen to the whole thing. And what’s so interesting to me about that you know, traditionally, I would say, the kind of history and kind of stories and kind of legacy that Beyonce is telling us visually with “Lemonade” and “Black is King.” It comes from like the oral tradition, right? So what’s so interesting to me right now is that seeing that, she knows that, you know, the people who are able to do that are dying and are no longer with us. So she’s reshaped the oral tradition by making it also visual. So I love that about her. Meanwhile, Taylor is back to like, you know, when she was a teenager with like her guitar, in front of a fire, which is also like oral tradition in a way you know, it’s like the stories, that country songs are based on like, you know, they’re always like storytelling, and they’re never about just like boy or like, “Shake It Off” or whatever like that. So they’re both very different takes on the same idea of like passing on stories to people which is we all crave right now that we have to be alone at home.
Diep:
I really love that and I love that idea that you’re just saying about oral traditions and I feel like with both of these albums, I was like joking to my friends, I was like wow, “Beyonce is going to Africa. Taylor’s going to the woods. They’re all just like rubbing it in our faces that we can’t go anywhere.”
Jose:
[laughs] Where the hell are we gonna go to? Like camp in Central Park and try to come up with poems and get like COVID from like a pigeon like no.Diep:
But for me listening to both both of them, and I listened to, you know, one day I listened to “folklore” and one day listen to/watched “Black is King” and and for me, I just noticed that there’s like this. It’s not like going back to basics of this, “they’re going back to where they came from,” because like they both came, like I wouldn’t say “folklore”‘s the same sound as you know, self-titled “Taylor Swift” country, but I do feel like there’s like an earthiness to it, of going back to just like you were saying, like, telling stories. And “Black is King” in particular, it’s like, it’s kind of taking the story of “The Lion King,” but like transposing it to modern times, and also reaching back to like Biblical times to and tracing that African lineage that way. And like telling these stories so that the next generation will take them and learn from them and move forward. And so like there’s this there’s this, yes, there’s like bells and whistles within each of them. Like, you know, Taylor was like swimming with the piano in her music video and you know Beyonce’s wearing so many, a shit ton of outfits. But there’s this theme of like story like, of storytelling as at the root of it, and and also going back and looking deep down as an artist, and see what motivates you and the traditions that you came from, and trying to take what you’ve learned from your past, and bringing it into the future.
Jose:
Absolutely. Because you know, I have said this repeatedly on the show, I have never been a fan of plot but I’m a huge fan of story and projects like “folklore” or “Black is King” made me think about the many ways in which growing up, I was passed on what I later would learn were the plots of classic movies, were taught to me as stories. So yeah, plot can go screw itself, but stories and why we tell stories and why we keep passing them on to the people who are coming next, it’s so important, it’s so precious like I feel like we’re like an album away from you know, just going back to like the wilderness and like wearing furs and going hunting and living in caves.
Diep:
Yeah and and I feel like for these artists, we’re also an album away from like, really now really discovering like who they are. Because neither of these women have given a lot of press about these projects. It’s like this, you want to know more about me, like this is it. It’s like I’m not using anything else to filter my message.
Jose:
Which is so great. Because we expect too much from celebrities and like, yeah, you know, like Beyonce. What has she done? Like one interview in like the past, like five years or something like that?
Diep:
Yeah, I know. It’s mostly through their Instagram. Like if you want to know more about Beyonce, look her up on Instagram,
Jose:
And “Homecoming,” which is so incredible.
Diep:
On Netflix. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, if you’re, if you’re a fan of her Egyptian/Nefertiri outfit in “Homecoming,” you’re gonna have a great time with “Black is King.” No, she doesn’t wear that outfit, but she wears like a lot of like, outfits inspired by African tribes and hairstyles.
Jose:
Okay, this is the first time that anything related to “The Lion King” has sounded interesting to me because “The Lion King” is so boring. It is so boring.
Jose:
Yeah, so wait, you’re not a huge “Lion King” fan even when you were like a little girl?
Diep:
I know I know. That’s the only thing like, for me, that they use, “In Black is King,” they use quotes from “The Lion King” remake that Beyonce was in, and every time they did it, when it wasn’t James Earl Jones, I was just thinking, oh you don’t need to. You don’t need Disney in this, Beyonce doesn’t need Disney, Beyonce could just take out all those lines and the thing will stand on its own as just a piece of you know, cultural pride.
Diep:
I know. I love “The Lion King.” But you know, it was never like my favorite of the Disney’s. I understand, like its significance to people. I mean, “The Lion King” ran on Broadway for like 20 years and it employed like African performers from Africa who wouldn’t have had opportunities here otherwise, and so I appreciate the lineage. I don’t appreciate it Disney creating talking CGI cats. And “Cats” came out last year. It’s been a very unfortunate year for cats. CGI cats.
Jose:
I never made that connection like both Taylor and Beyonce played CGI cats. Is Beyonce a cat person cuz cuz Taylor is like the ultimate like cat lady.
Diep:
I don’t think Beyonce is an animal person.
Jose:
She probably have like a like, I don’t, like a pet cobra.
Diep:
Or like a lot like a lioness. Yeah, like a giant animal. I don’t think she—animals are, you know, they’re very unpredictable. And Beyonce likes to be in control.
Jose:
Yeah, I’m sure she could tame like a, like a really crazy wild animal. Like she would be like, I don’t know. It’s like the wild animal that they’re—
Diep:
Like an elephant?
Jose:
They’re so cute. Elephant is so gentle that you know, like a crazy like cobra, shark or something. I’m sure she’ll just be like, look at it and just be like, you’re mine now and the shark would just do what Beyonce said, like lady of the oceans and the heavens and all of that.
Diep:
What do you make of these artists like releasing these gigantic bodies of work right now though? I mean, because I feel like “Black is King” was in you know, production for like the past year and they could have delayed it, but they chose not to. And so do you think it’s, I think it’s one of those things where, oh, everyone’s at home, we need to this is the opportunity to really get the most attention.
Jose:
But more than that, they’re just giving people hope. You know, they’re reminding people that you know, they haven’t forgotten about it because that’s the thing you know, like perfectly, like we complain on the show often, like Broadway has decided that nothing is happening right and that everyone who does Broadway stuff, is like dead apparently. Or like, you know, frozen like that. Remember that “Passengers” movie with Jennifer Lawrence and—
Diep:
That rapey “Passengers” movie?
Jose:
Without that part, but yeah, everyone’s like frozen, right? And they’re not. So I like the fact that artists that are so important like Taylor and Beyonce are saying, you know, “No, like life is going on. It doesn’t look like what it looked like in the past. But life isn’t stopping. So here’s the present, you mortals.”
Diep:
The gift, I believe that’s what Beyonce called “The Lion King” album, “The Gift,” together. I’m like, yep, especially now. And what I love is because I think, and the reason we’re comparing both of them is because, you know, they both release new stuff, but, but for me, I like they’ve both artists who have control, who got started being controlled by men. And now they’ve taken control of their own production, because I don’t think if Taylor Swift was under her old production company, they would have let her do something like this so quickly. And I feel like it’s something that a lot of other artists in other disciplines can learn right now, of you don’t need, you can produce these things on your own, you don’t need a fancy producer to help you with this, you don’t need a publicity machine to promote this for you, you have your own following of your fans, and like you don’t need anyone to give you permission to make art right now. Like we’re all in front of a computer, we all have you know phones, we can all we can all buy an HD camera if we really want to, you can put this work out whenever you want to.
Jose:
A-fucking-men, which is why I’m very excited that we are going to be talking to BD Wong who “Lemonade”-ed us. Can you think of any other like, you know, theater person who’s done something like this, this Beyonce-like in quarantine?
Diep:
No, but I keep waiting for it. We’re recording this before we’ve seen videos but BD said he’ll send us the videos but what I really love is, I’ve been wanting someone to do a musical on Zoom, because I really love the play readings, but girl needs production value.
Jose:
Yes, yes, yes. Yes we do. So let’s go talk to BD about this very exciting, I promise not to call him Beyonce again.
Diep:
You think it’s the gay “Lemonade”?
Jose:
I mean, “Lemonade” is the gay “Lemonade.” No, I’m kidding. No, I don’t know. That’s like a very deep philosophical question. But yeah, let’s, let’s call this the gay “Lemonade” for now. So let’s go talk to BD. Hi, BD. Thank you so much for joining us. Ah, so “Songs From an Unmade Bed.” Diep and I have been referring to it as the gay “Lemonade” ’cause it’s just—
BD:
It’s my gay “Lemonade”! I’m glad that you said that because it looks like it’s always my fantasy. I mean I think she’s just the best right and it is my fantasy and Richert [Schnorr], my husband is really into her and really into her her video vocabulary and her video career. And and so that’s it’s actually not that passing a reference, but it is like that, you know it’s it’s it became this kind of expression of our feelings and our relationship and our collaboration and our sensibilities that we share as creative people. And we didn’t really get to know what those things were until we started working together. We’ve never worked together before and a lot of couples don’t ever get to have this experience and creative couples that do cross the line and work together. That can be real. It’s super interesting and, and and rather challenging, but also really, very, when you come out the other side, you really feel good about your relationship if you do it the right way.
Diep:
Oh my god, you’re like Beyonce and Jay Z. I mean, what was the impetus for the project? Was it one of those, like, kinda like, we’re talking about Taylor Swift earlier, me and Jose, like offline about, you know, artists are trying to figure out ways to be creative and and you you haven’t done a musical in a really long time.
BD
That’s right. Yeah. And it’s always part of my musical work and enjoying musicals is always a thing that I always have that I don’t get to really do very much at all. And there’s a lot of things that came together. One is that I’d always love to this particular song cycle this piece. It was done at New York Theatre Workshop in 2005, a great actor named Michael Winther, who’s also a friend of mine, performed in it at New York Theatre Workshop, a beautiful, lovely production. It’s a one man show or solo show with 18 songs, one lyricist and 18 composers. And it’s about kind of, it touches on the ruminations of a gay man, living in his, he’s in his apartment, and he’s kind of ruminating on his romantic life. That’s the basic kind of thing. But it doesn’t have a plot. It’s just all different songs about different guys or different situations or different emotional circumstances between people. And that thing, it stayed with me and one of my best friends was one of the 18 composers. So I, I knew it and I went to see it because my friend had written a song in it, and I loved it. And some of the songs are very challenging, the music is challenging, and I’ve often used it as part of my vocal workout. And I was doing that during the beginning of March when we were starting to quarantine.
And I started to feel a sense of resonance into songs that, Oh, wow, this song actually, today actually really applies, this song about wanting to go out and not being able to go out that kind of thing. And it’s song after song kind of had a double kind of meaning afterwards. So I thought, Oh, I really would like to, to explore this material. And I had also been talking to the lyricist Mark Campbell, who’s kind of the creator of the piece, and I said I’d like to make a movie of this. I had done this like last year. And so I went back to him in March and said, Hey, remember I said I want to make a movie of “Songs From an Unmade Bed”? You know, what if we made videos in our apartment in quarantine, and then the goal would be to use the videos and kind of try to use them as a charity for something. And he loved the idea of it.
And I played the songs for Richert my husband, and he loved the ideas and you know, when you bring a person like a videographer on an actor and videographer relationship, if the videographer is just doing it, because you are making them do it, that would just, it’s just a recipe for disaster. But if the person genuinely likes the material, which he did, then you have a chance to really do something together. That’s really great. And he did love them the songs and we started to think well, could we really make 18 videos in our house, and we started doing it, we started rearranging their furniture and we bought some lights and we borrowed some sound equipment and we started recording the songs and then we started filming them, we started making little, cute little videos of them. And the challenge became after video after video, as we went on to make them different and interesting and to have them have a point of view or an aesthetic or a visual life that was different from the others. And we just finished them like yesterday or the day before, we just really finished the last one.
We’re going to stream them next Monday on on August 10. And it’s going to benefit Broadway Cares Emergency COVID Assistance Fund for people in the theater, backstage and onstage. As you know the theaters completely. The rug has been pulled out from under the theater. So a lot of the performers and the artists, not just actors, not just people on stage, but people backstage—hair, makeup, wardrobe, all of these people are, many of them struggling. So this is a kind of an event, streaming event, to raise money for, for those that that fund. And what’s kind of nice is that the the fund kind of reflects the spirit of the of the show, the show is kind of presenting itself as music videos. And it’s kind of the only theater we have now. We don’t have a theater.
So this is my version of the theater made in my home that I can’t leave and without people there to really be able to watch it in the same room as me. But what else can we do right at this point in order to do an entertain people theatrical. There’s a theatricality to some of the songs. And that’s nice. So I thought that there was a—I feel like artists were kind of struggling to figure out what to do next. And that one of the things that was kind of happening with people were doing a lot of self-made content playing instruments in their, in their bathtub or whatever. And I thought, well, that’s not going to stay interesting that long. I think it was wonderful when you started seeing people doing it and the outpouring of content that started, as has been happening. You think that’s really exciting and people are not, are not accepting the fact that they’re, they’re having to stay home. They’re there. They’re doing, they’re being them. I’m a musician. So I’m going to play and I’m going to, I’m a singer, so I’m going to sing, they wouldn’t stop being themselves, right? Nothing would stop them. But at the same time, there were limitations that were really strong and are really strong. And I think we’re possibly, if this continues on as we see that it’s going to, we’re going to see people pushing forward and changing the written, changing the limitations that they have. We’re all becoming self video makers. You know, all actors started becoming self video makers for the last few years because the audition process as an actor has changed drastically. And and now we have a situation where a lot of actors know how to make videos of themselves have the equipment, have the lighting going on. And so we see a kind of a change in the, the content and where it’s coming from and who’s producing it. It’s self produced a lot. And what I think is that through costume and, and, and wardrobe and, and things that are in your control, but that you wouldn’t normally push to the next level, if people start doing that the content can become really interesting. So that was our attempt. This is our attempt at that is like saying, Okay, I’m not just gonna wear my regular clothes, I’m gonna put something on that goes with the song, or something. And not always but but a lot of times. And I’m going to do my hair to go with the song, you know, because my hair is really long, you know, it’s like getting really long. So that’s kind of it, and so I guess those are the main salient things is that that our relationship, really kind of was challenged and also kind of was forced to meet the challenge by working together and that there’s a kind of poetry or poetic-ness to the the fact that we’re in quarantine making this thing about someone who’s trying to connect with the outside world with other people.
Jose:
Speaking of costumes I was living for when I saw you getting ready to go to like a club that looked like the Eagle or something.
Yeah, that song that song is called “I want to go out tonight.” And it’s exactly you know, it actually mirrors the kind of way that we, the song was written in 2004. The show was originally done in 2005. It wasn’t about COVID, it wasn’t about people being relegated to their homes because of quarantine. But he was wanting to go out for other reasons. He wanted to be bad that night, the character in the song, and so it has a new rap. It has another layer to it. But you see that iconic kind of clothing right? And you think Gosh, when was the last time I was able to do that put on a harness and go dancing right? Or put on you know, go dancing with my shirt off. When was the last time we were even able to do something as what seems so simple as that? So the song cycle, and some of the videos, like the one that you mentioned, do touch on that and it’s surprisingly enough for something that was written in 2005 there are a lot of opportunities to touch on something that we’re feeling right now.
Jose:
And that song you sing about wanting to not-so-bright things. And what are some not very bright things that you missed doing the most?
BD:
Well in the song he’s saying, Oh gosh, I I feel so restricted right now that I would do just about anything like whatever you know, and he’s talking about like being with someone who’s probably not good for you or something you know, like bad boy kind of thing. I don’t know, what do I, what I’m, you know, the things that I’m doing that are bad are like over eating junk food. That’s kind of what, where it is for me right now.
But what do I miss? Oh, gosh, I don’t, I don’t know. I do miss. I just miss you know, I’m a tactile person. I miss touching people. I do. I do. I must admit that that is a thing that that I feel very weird about, like, actually the impulse to come towards—we had a picnic and a kind of social distance picnic for Richert. It was his birthday last week. And we had about 10 of our friends by the water outside in Battery Park. And we were all spaced out, but we didn’t touch each other. It was like, you know, you don’t we’re not we’re not really there yet where we’re comfortable touching each other or we feel like it’s it’s good to probably be better safe than sorry. And so, but the impetus is there right? Hi. And you see them and you haven’t seen, I know we haven’t been in the same room with these people that we have over for dinner every Saturday night because we have a dinner party every Saturday night. We haven’t seen them and so that impetus, it’s very strange to kind of not be able to follow through.
Diep:
Right. So the last thing at the theater I saw you in was “The Great Leap” by Lauren Yee. Which was, you also directed like the next year at Pasadena. And because I was thinking about that play actually well, because I’m friends with Lauren. And also because like, in that play, you played a character who did, who felt like a follower or not, and not a leader and not at the end of the play, like he learns how to like speak up what he believes in, not to spoil a play.
BD
And to act for him on his own behalf, for his own wishes and for what he wants. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I did. And and, and was there a question?
Diep:
Yes, there was a question. I feel like, like just thinking about that play, like how have you been thinking about it, about “The Great Leap,” and about, like something that you did in two like two years ago, I feel I feel like that, it’s so relevant now to just like, us, people finding courage to speak up.
BD
Yes. You know, I haven’t really concretely touched on the play with regards to current events or the way that people feel now, but it is absolutely a play about what’s happening now to people in the world. And, and does relate to that. And I do, I think that’s why the plays such a good play, because these things are always threatening to be our plate. And and we either push them away as a society or we we get back to them, you know, there’s a pendulum that swings and we’re in a place in the pendulum where the pendulum is swinging to this place where people are speaking up and saying things that they did not say before that, there’s more of a culture of it and there’s more of an understanding of it and an acceptance of it. That actually raises consciousness.
People who were very numb, people that don’t understand, like people that were closed down to the whole idea of what #MeToo was all about, now some of them kind of go, “Oh, I see. I see actually, that’s, I see how that the math is added up, and how I play a role in that math or something that I observe is there that really needs to be spoken up about.” Rather than silence. Silence, it is actually complicit. You know, what’s the word that goes with complicit? Complicity? Yeah. And for such a delightful play, because Lauren has written a lovely play, that’s a very deep thing just to witness the character go through and I think that is one of the reasons why I did the play actually three times, I did it once in New York, once in San Francisco at American Conservatory Theater, and then I directed it at Pasadena Playhouse, just last year.
I think that’s the reason why I keep coming back to it or we enjoyed it so much or wanted to do it again, is to talk about those themes of, of what it means to put yourself on the line, and how integral that is to being human. And in some ways you’re kind of robbing yourself of one of human’s greatest opportunities or aspects of being human by not speaking out, by not, that’s a thing that humans can do. And if you turn out to be the kind of person who doesn’t do that, you’re not really experiencing your full humanity. And so a play’s like Lauren’s actually, really always bring people in touch with that, and that’s really, really wonderful.
Jose:
It’s very hard to think about any art about queer Asian men that doesn’t involve BD Wong. And I wonder, you know, since you since you started, you know, your career, you know, what has changed the most when it comes to, you know, queer representation that’s not like, you know, a gay white man.
BD
What has changed the most over my career?
Jose:
For better and for worse, I guess.
BD
Well, let me think about that for a second. Because, you know, one of the things that comes to mind, which is really great, is and to bring it back to this project, “Songs From an Unmade Bed.” There’s one songin “Songs From an Unmade Bed,” which was about a very specific kind of relationship, which is a relationship between a guy and another guy who has a partner, and how the guy that he’s messing around with or dating or whatever you want to call it takes on a third person. And so then he’s saying, “Well, I didn’t really mind being the second person, but I don’t want to be the third person.” Right? There’s a drawing of the line.
And the reason why I’m telling this is because I was adapting the, the song to us making a video of it. And I was trying to figure out how. And when you’re making, the part of the thing about making these videos is that you don’t have other actors necessarily that you can interact with. If you are going to bring another actor in, you have to have used them remotely and figure out a way to use them remotely. And you may have them make a self tape and share it and you have to cut it together. It’s very complicated. And so in interpreting the song, I was trying to figure out a way to say what I felt about that phenomenon of being grouped together with someone else being the third person.
And what it reminded me of is the kind of racial profiling that happens in gay dating and that people, it’s great that people have their preferences, but the irritation or the disappointment I always feel when I find out that someone I’m dating only exclusively dates Asian people is always disappointing to me like, that’s all they want is Oh, that’s, that’s all you see in me is the fact that I’m Asian. Like, what about the fact that I’m so dot dot dot? Don’t you like that? Well, of course they like that. But there’s always this consistency and it has to do with race. And as someone who doesn’t, I’m not gonna say I don’t see color, but I don’t want to when I’m dating someone, that’s not really a salient aspect of what I’m looking for, or I’m initially attracted to or anything, it’s, it’s other things. So I find it personally for me a little off putting, that’s my own personal thing. I’m sure we will get lots of letters. But so I I took the song and I made the song about not a guy that has two other extracurricular relationships, but, but 16 and they’re all of them are Asian guys, and I’m trying to in a whimsical way, describe this phenomenon that happens. Only an Asian guy like me would really know understand. When I brought these Asian musical theater performers, these all gay Asian musical theater, from Broadway and TV and all these different places, and put 16 of them together in this number, and not one person said, I don’t understand what that is. Everybody knew the phenomenon that we’re talking about.
And what I’m saying is a project like that, a video like this, wouldn’t I wouldn’t have made it five years ago or 10 years ago. I’m in a place now where I’m self-generating material. And I’m actually using my own point of view and my own thoughts and not editing it. I mean, if I stopped for a split second, I might have thought, Well, does anybody else care about this or does anybody understand it. And I didn’t care at the end of it. I thought, I think this is something to share. That was really delightful that others people when they see it will recognize it in another like, I think Jose, you would recognize it in your way. You know, from your point of view. We would all take from it something that is recognizable. And that comes from the universality comes from very specific, something very specific. And I’ve realized that being very specific in my own work and expressing myself as a writer, and all of that is essential.
And I didn’t always feel that way. And I think if you’re asking me what’s different about the point of the queer point of view, and what I’m doing with that, and what I care about it, it’s evolved my coming out as a, as a public person or being an actor was was clouded earlier on with doubt or worry about what would be the outcome of it. And now there’s none of that at all. There’s there’s just no fear about it or anything. In fact, there’s a liberation of course that will not be foreign to people, you know, the coming out process is a liberating process, there’s no question about it. And the further you come out and the more, the bigger you come out, the more liberating it can be. And I believe that strongly and I feel that and I have seen the proof of it. And I love that. And that is different. That is an evolution of my own sensibility that has happened over the years. And so now what I’m saying is that it’s involving my actual expressive work, because I am a writer who also acts or an actor who also writes and that usually means that as an actor, I’m just playing someone else’s part that they wrote for me, and that I’m bringing to it whatever I can, but it doesn’t often allow me to be particularly specific. And something like this, this is a really good example of something really specific that is able to be mined from it. I’m going to send you guys the link to that video because I really like it. Yes, it has really wonderful, you just, these these 16 guys all took this prompt, and they just ran with it and it was really great.
Diep:
Yeah, we just talked to Daniel K Isaac, and he told us he’s naked in it.
BD
He’s naked in it. He did? He told you? And I mean, you know, naked to the point where it’s obviously going to be able to be acceptable to people to all people. But you know, I tell, you know, I said, I need 16 sexy guys, you guys and I want lots of you to be shirtless. And I want to see who will do it and who won’t. And you know, it was really fun. And a lot of them showed up shirtless, and Daniel K Isaac he said, Well, how about if I’m in the bubble bath? And so yes, be in the bubble bath. I think I wrote in the script that he’s in a bathtub or something like that, but then he went to the bubble bath place, and that brings lots of cinematic opportunities that you will see when you see this video.
Diep:
Okay, so I want to ask you then is like, because you’re a writer, and you’ve written a book about like the birth of your son so do you ever think like you’ll write a play about like your life or about something that’s more reflective of who you are, since those opportunities to play that isn’t usually as readily available?
BD
Who knows? I think possible, very possible. I usually don’t think of myself as the kind of writer or actor or performer that would go right to the biographical place, like be literally biographical. And I’m so I’m not interested in that and more interested in taking things that I’ve experienced. And, you know, for example, like I did in the video, I mean, that’s not biographical. But that is an aspect of something that I know about, that I couldn’t write another character’s experience of. And that way, I think it would be more than that. More like that. It would be more of me saying, Okay, well, what is it that I want to say or share that I do know about, like, write from your own experience to and say, Okay, I know what to say about that particular thing. As opposed to naming the character with my name and having the character be an actor and, you know, that’s not interesting to me at all. But the experiences are all really interesting. The the point of view is the most interesting thing to me.
Jose:
Now I want to know who would play you? Oh, yeah, uh,
BD
Well, you know, I did I just did. I mean, this comes to mind it’s not really the answer to the question, but I just did in season four of “Mr. Robot.” I had this big flashback. And Ross Le played me at 24 something like that. And he was wonderful in it. And so, you know, either before Ross Le was announced that he was doing it, they told me that they had cast that part. I thought, well, nobody can. Nobody’s going to be able to do that. You just have to have me in it and just have to like give me some like, good makeup or something
Diep:
Like “The Irishman” it.
BD
Yeah, exactly. But it Turns out, yes, there are people and they can do that. And there will be wonderful and there’s lots of them. And I’m proud to say that as a member of this community, so I don’t know the answer. It might be Ross Le. Who knows.
Jose:
I’m really curious about which skill that you discovered that you had doing this video, doing this song cycle, you’re like, Huh, I’m actually pretty good at this. Maybe I’ll do this. Oh, interesting. Mmm hmm.
BD
Let me think. Well, one of if this is hard to describe, maybe but one maybe this will make people want to see these videos because they’re quite beautiful and what Richert as a videographer, he has always made videos of himself. He’s got a dance background. He has an Instagram channel, our Instagram feed. And the recurring visual theme of his videos is multiple manifestations of himself in different ways. Okay. He tiles himself or he makes himself, he has all different ways of doing that. And he is as the editor and as the technician, he understands how to do that technically, and he does it really very well. And so he, what was interesting for him is him doing that on another person, which was me for this. And when I was doing it, I realized that I had a way of storing the the vocabulary, physical vocabulary in my brain because I do a take of a song and that I would say, okay to do the take again, but not do exactly the same thing I did before, but it has to be kind of similar. So you know that that was the name of the video that Adele does when she’s in that beautiful floral dress and she’s kind of—
Diep:
“Send My Love to Your New Lover”?
BD
Yeah, you know, I’m actually not even sure that’s the name of it, but you know what I’m saying? And there’s been multiple manifestations of herself singing the same song. And so we do a lot of that, and it’s really fun and it’s really beautiful, but I find myself going, oh I remember what I did. I have a kind of computerized brain about how to make it interesting for Richert to cut, but also make it consistent with the style of the other tapes and stuff like that. It’s a very random kind of thing to be able to do.
Diep:
Do you have like a giant green screen in your apartment? Because like some of the footage, I was like, how is it so big?
BD
Yeah, we had, it’s not giant, really, we had a green screen and we use a green screen and we use a lot. And we use it in different ways. Um, many many, many different ways. Um, and, you know, we have a lot of strange that a lot of weird coincidences or, or kind of fortuitous events happen. One was that they abandoned the scandalously closed massage parlor that was below us. Okay, we live on the second floor and in the mezzanine level, there was a commercial space that was a massage parlor and it was unceremoniously closed by the New York, whatever, there was a big sign plastered on the door one day, and all the ladies inside were gone. And then it was abandoned.
And so we use the space. We went down there and we put furniture in there. And we made little sets and stuff like that. We did. Nobody kicked us out. Nobody care. We were just down there and it was completely unused space. We weren’t really trespassing, it didn’t really matter. And at one point, somebody actually was throwing out a bed. And so there was a bed there. And we needed a bed because it was “Songs From an Unmade Bed.” And so we took the bed and we moved it into one of the little rooms and we put it in there and it is the bed, you don’t you haven’t seen it in the preview videos we gave you but there is a little room that is the opening of the show. And that is a room that we made up with all of our own stuff that makes it make it look like this guy’s apartment. And the bed was there. And so it was like, wow, there’s a bed, there’s a TV that someone brought down, we needed a TV. So we had a TV. So that was one of the things that was fortuitous.
The other thing that was fortuitous, it was that that, it is a nuisance when when when your building is, they put scaffolding over the front of your, on the on the ground floor of your building, you’re under these like pipes and stuff like that. And you’re always worried about how long it will take for them to get rid of them because they’re such a nuisance. But in this case, as we live in the second floor, it allowed us to walk outside of our apartment and film our own window, which we could never have done. So the shots of the of the window, of me looking out the window are me with Richert on the scaffolding because there was a scaffolding there. For him to be able to stand on, we call it our deck now because we sit on it and it’s like our own, like, you know, private deck and a beach house. Things like that happened. And one of those things, you know, so there was a green screen inside the house to allow him to change the inside of the house. But the outside of the house is actually our house, our apartment. But we did use a lot of green screen and I bought a lot of different kinds of green screens like well, it’s medium-sized screens, bigger one and then one that pops open, you know, the cabinets. It’s got a little wire in it, and it pops open and it’s portable.
Diep:
Oh, I love it. Because like, I’ve been craving production value. You just like unlocked, like how to have production value when you’re stuck in your apartment.
BD
Yes, thanks. Well, that’s what I was trying to get out before. We just really hope people kind of push into this area. It’s not that hard to do. It’s not that hard to learn how to do. I was lucky that I had somebody who could do it in a big way. Like Richert really knows how to do it in a big way. And so he knows more how to do that than most people do, certainly more than I do. But we can go into this frontier. And it’s kind of fertile. And I encourage people to do it because I think it’s really fun. And it creates a lot you know, TikTok kind of created an opportunity for people to be really creative in a different way, I think is TikTok is gone now. I don’t even know there—
Diep:
It’s not banned yet.
BD:
But but it’s these kinds of platforms and opportunities. If people are really creative, they become a place for us to see new things. I thank you for saying that because that is kind of what I want people to be intrigued by is is that the the the fact that the videos look different, that they don’t look like I’m in my bathtub playing the ukulele.
Jose:
Yes, you have. You have made Beyonce very proud.
BD
Oh gosh. I didn’t get to I meant to kind of do a little baseball bat homage thing, but I didn’t, we never did it. So all the videos are done without me swinging a baseball bat down the street. Because I couldn’t go outside.
Diep:
Next time. Yeah. Next time next song cycle. Well, thank you so much BD for joining us. Will the videos be available online after Monday.
BD
I think so, I think the main livestream is Monday at 8:00 Eastern Standard Time. And then after that, I think we’ll announce that there will be like, in case you missed it kind of catch ups for this, but it’s very limited because there are real restrictions on the material, the licensing of the material and the other actors that are in it. And the actors unions and the musicians unions are really strict about these things. So we encourage people to watch them on Monday and if you miss it, you can look for it on Broadway Cares.org, it’s going to be on their YouTube channel. And when it’s available, it’ll be available like probably for the rest of the week. But it will go away really quick.
Diep:
It’s blink and you miss it. So don’t miss these videos.
BD
COVID days are so weird. They either feel really long or they feel really short. It’s very strange.
Diep:
I’m so glad that you’re using your COVID days to create art for us.
BD
Yes, we should all be doing that. It’s really I highly recommend it, really. And I really thank you guys for the conversation because I enjoy it. And I love what you guys do. So thanks.
Diep:
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. Oh, quick question. Do you have any? Do you have anything else you want to plug into it? Because I know on Comedy Central you can watch “Nora From Queens,” is the anything else?
BD:
No, no, I mean, I mean, I could just tell you I mean, just like just curiosity sake, I’m going to go—finally, next week, actually to UK to shoot “Jurassic World Dominion,” it’s called, that’s the third “Jurassic World” movie, the last one, the last “Jurassic World,” “Jurassic Park” movie, probably ever, I would be really surprised if they went any further than this. And the third one, and that’s in London, I’ll be in London for one quick trip and then a longer trip in October. But that’s being shot now, one of the first movies to be in full production. And so next year, hopefully, when we’re actually able to go to movie theaters again in June, that movie will be one of the big movies that is able to open because it’s being made now. And that has been a huge discussion in the film industry about how to do that. And whatever it is, it’s a bunch of people, actors who have all quarantined and then a bunch of people on the crew in hazmat outfits, basically, like really strict guidelines for a while, at least face masks and face shields, you know, for a lot of people, so that’s a big thing and then “Nora From Queens” is going to shoot next January, I think. Season Two.
Diep:
It’s gonna be like “Love Island” where you’ll have to isolate on an island before you can start shooting.
BD
It might be right and then what? The naughtiness that might ensue as me and Bowen [Yang] are very inappropriate with one another. It’s terrible that he’s playing my nephew because we’re very, Bowen’s also playing a guest in one of the music videos. He’s in the video that I was telling you about with a group of Asian guy.
Diep:
Oh my god, Bowen Yang from SNL. So I feel like are you just fated to play people who are related to each other.
BD
Oh, no, no gosh. Oh, oh, no, I hope not. I have this idea actually for screenplay with that we would be in that would be really scandalous and really funny and, and weird. I won’t say any more about that than that.
Diep:
Oh, I would watch it. Yeah,
Jose:
Yeah, can’t wait.
Diep:
It’s like we need more representation of like hot, hot gay men. Asian gay men. So thank you, for you know, yes.
BD:
That’s what I wanted to do with the video, to actually, so you can see plenty of hot Asian gay men. A little side butt and some Daniel Isaac in the bathtub. If you tune in on Monday, that’s what that’s the best I can do to get you to watch it really. It’s really worth it. Thank you so much. Thank you guys.
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